[Podcast] Trailblazing Insights in Pharma Communications: Michelle Dunst’s Journey in Social Listening for Healthcare Innovation

Jackie Cuyvers:
Welcome to the Women in Social Listening and Insights podcast, where we showcase the incredible work of women working in the field of social intelligence. My name is Jackie Kivers, and I’ll be your host for this journey. In this podcast, we’ll be speaking with women from enterprise, agencies, and academia who are leading the charge in the world of social listening and insights. Together, we’ll be exploring their careers and the challenges they faced and overcome and the innovative solutions they’ve developed. Our goal is to provide valuable insights and advice to our listeners who are passionate about this field and committed to advancing their careers. Whether you’re a seasoned professional or just starting out, you’ll find inspiration and guidance in these conversations. So sit back, relax, and get ready to learn from the women who are shaping the future of social intelligence. Let’s get started.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Today, I’m joined by Michelle Dunst. Michelle, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Michelle Dunst:
Hi, Jackie. So I’m the Managing Director of Analytics and Insights at Real Chemistry, and we are a healthcare innovation company that delivers data driven, tech enabled healthcare listening and communication solutions to many biopharma and pharmaceutical clients.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you perhaps first got started in the field of social listening and insights? And a little bit maybe about what did your path look like?

Michelle Dunst:
Definitely. So as a lot of us do, who have been doing this for quite a while, how we got here is sort of by chance or destiny, I should say. So my background is in marketing, and I actually started supporting large tech and consumer brands back in undergrad with some market research and what what I call the early days of social media listening. So from then, I went to on to work at one of the large diet companies, where I used some of the earliest social media monitoring software. So I had the pleasure of analysing sentiment and quotes from people watching award shows and making mean comments about celebrities and their weight and dieting. So I learned a lot in the early days of needing to break through the noise to get to the insights. And whether that, at the time, whether that meant finding an amazing journey of someone finding a diet that finally works to them, works for them or identifying a potential brand advocate. So it was a lot of fun, and I and I didn’t know, you know, the magnitude of what doing social listening back then would mean what it is today. So fast forward to where I am now, you know, I’d say around a decade ago, I started at a small shop social media listening agency. We were about five people at the time. We specialised in healthcare. I knew nothing about healthcare or pharma, But I fell in love with the work instantly and the amazing backgrounds of the people I worked with. I worked with linguists, market researchers, digital strategists. And then we were bought by a company that is now Real Chemistry.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Wow. That’s quite the journey. So you’ve been there over the years doing social listening and and, developing insights from marketing and technology through diets and and the comments around those diets to now healthcare. What do you think sets social listening or insights in social intelligence apart from other areas of research for industries like healthcare or life sciences?

Michelle Dunst:
Definitely. So when I think about what sets social listening apart is I’ve heard it’s been said before. Right? But it is the largest focus group in the whole world. Right? It’s unfiltered. It’s raw. It’s unprompted responses, dialogue, and conversations, and engagement from the community where we aren’t probing them. They’re telling how it’s like to be living with their specific disease. Or it’s a physician talking about an experience or what he’s feeling, or he or she is feeling about new therapies in the market. And I think that’s the beauty of social listening and social intelligence, and especially in healthcare and life sciences research, is that sometimes you wanna see raw. You wanna see those unseen experiences and listen and learn and so that we can truly understand those individuals.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So what would you say to people who might push back about using this type of research for healthcare and say, “Oh, I’m sure people with that health condition don’t talk about it online”.

Michelle Dunst:
I would say that that’s why we take such a dynamic approach when we’re doing social media listening for patients, caregivers, and physicians because it’s not always what they say. It’s what they do. It’s what they search. It’s what they engage with. I will say that doing this for many years, it’s been I can count on one hand, right, of maybe a diagnosis or a specific journey that was really hard to find insights for on social media. People that are living with an illness or a disease or listening through symptoms and want to achieve a diagnosis, what they want is community, and there’s no bigger community than social media. And so we really can find those insights, but sometimes it’s not easy.

Meeting clients’ needs through understanding language

Jackie Cuyvers:
Can you explain a little bit more about what social listening involves in the context of this kind of healthcare conversation or the pharmaceutical industry?

Michelle Dunst:
Absolutely. So when we think about social listening and how biopharma, pharmaceutical clients would use it. They’re looking to better understand their audiences, their core audiences. So let’s think patients, caregivers, physicians, and of course, other stakeholders like, you know, journalists, for example. But for the purpose of this conversation and where social listening provides the best value is in the patient caregiver physician, realm. So a lot of the work that we do with understanding the patient and caregiver better is a patient journey. So we can leverage social media listening to truly dive into how a patient receives diagnosis, the symptomology before they get the diagnosis, really those steps and milestones of their entire journey that led them to where they are today. And that might be barriers in getting the diagnosis, or barriers in treatment, or trouble with treatment. And so by illuminating those barriers and those milestones to our clients, they can better meet them where they are with patient education materials or digital content, for example. Another piece of research that falls under that social listening bucket is lexical and lexicon analysis. So in order for our clients to better meet the patient, the physician where they are, they need to speak their language, and they need to use language that will resonate with them. So a lot of the work that we do is understanding how what is the voice of the patient? How are they engaging with one another so that we can use the language and we can understand those nuances per disease state because we know that that varies so much. And then lastly, another one that I wanna talk about is the more of the competitive and market landscape and how we can use social media listening. Because as pharmaceutical brands are fighting for space in the market, it’s important for us to help our clients understand where they are putting a stake in the ground on social or how they are or how they are engaging these communities and audiences on social media, and where are those gaps that’s still not being filled for that community.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Can you share an example where some of these insights from social listening led to an moment, which changed how your pharmaceutical client or biopharma client approached patient education or support?

Michelle Dunst:
Definitely. So in one of my more insightful and favourite projects that Real Chemistry has worked on and in my group, we worked with a client who had a pre social product in an autoimmune disease. This particular disease is fairly prevalent, affects about 23,000,000 people worldwide. But that community is one that feels neglected, misrepresented, in medicine, and they don’t feel like their life impact is fully understood by those around them, nor the industry. And so in this social listening project, where we did integrate lots of data sources, including primary market research and search. Our goal was to elevate the understanding of that experience. And by not only focusing on the hallmark easily seen issues of that disease, but the emotional discussion and more of the life burden that it has on those individuals. And that moment really emerged in what we saw, right, where, you know, the the search and the social data revealed, yes, symptoms, right? The the symptoms that we expected to see. And that was super important, right, to confirm with our client that, yes, these symptoms are burdensome for the for the patient. They talk about it at length on social media. But what our moment was that, wow, this is the unseen journey of this patient, is they were revealing the issues that troubled them the most, their deepest hopes and fears about living with that disease. And it was really those insights that captured, you know, a really vivid picture of the real struggles faced by that patient population. So we further quantified those insights and troublesome issues with a bothersome index that really gauged the relative impact of various issues that those patients had. And I’m excited to say that that that research was published last year, and it did help inform the clinical trial development and recruitment for that patient population. So it was really rewarding work and one that we love to do here because it really does show that unseen experience.

Jackie Cuyvers:
I think that’s that’s fantastic that you were able to not only get those insights, but to see them applied and for them to have an impact, a a real world impact. I think so many times, pharmaceutical companies love to use the word patient centric. Right? That they’re taking a page patient centric approach or they are patient centric, but it’s examples or times like these that they truly are. So that’s that’s incredible. So how do you measure the success of a social intelligence project? Is it getting it published, or what metrics do you use to measure success?

Michelle Dunst:
It’d be great if every social listening research got published, right? But, when I think about measuring the success of a social listening project or ongoing social listening program, we ask ourselves that question of what did we originally seek out to do? When the project wraps, did we learn what we were supposed to? Did anything new come through? Did the research prove that we might need more research? And this happens a lot in social listening because it found things that we didn’t think we’d find. Right? Did it inform creative content and channel strategies? That goes into the actionable piece. Right? And so we asked ourselves these questions with the client, and I want the social listening to work the hardest it can for you to meet your objectives for that brand or their product. So when we get together, we might say, is engagement important to you? Do we want your messages and volume about your brand to be, you know, do we wanna see an increase in mess in, mentions over time? Just a few examples there.

Jackie Cuyvers:
How do you approach collaboration and teamwork in social intelligence projects, and what skills do you think are essential for success in this field?

Michelle Dunst:
Absolutely. So I’m a for those that know me and work with me, I’m a meeting of the minds type of person. I want diverse perspectives, background, and for everyone to get a chance to weigh in. Because in social listening, there’s a lot of ways to interpret the data and think through creative approaches for analysing and collecting data. Right? So I want everyone to have a seat at the table, and I love to work with people with different backgrounds and skills. Right? What I think is that social listening and intelligence is best executed by folks who can masterfully balance the tech side with data analysis and with heavy anthropology and communication skills. So I’m not gonna say that, okay, you need to be awesome at all of these things. Right? Because that would be a unicorn, which some of some of us are in the industry. Social listening project shine. Another skill that I think we talk about a lot in social media listening is curiosity. And that’s said a lot, but it is huge. I used to say going the or you have a hypothesis of, oh, this is kind of interesting, keep going. Keep going until you find a gem. And maybe it wasn’t in the way that you thought, but that’s social listening is about going the extra click and going as far as you can to find that deep insight because the Internet is a a wild west, so to speak. And so it takes a lot and it takes a lot of, learning and curiosity there. Another thing I’d say, I just wanna wrap up on what else would be a valuable skill in social listening is you have to be pretty savvy in trends and cultural awareness. So this would involve actively tracking and understanding emerging trends, whether it be in pop culture or the digital or tech space, understanding shifts in consumer behaviour and changes in societal norms. So the folks that read up on even new digital platform changes and what’s going on in the world really makes an impact on how we are deriving insights and how we’re collecting data. You really have to be up to date on what’s going on in the world and in platforms that we use.

Jackie Cuyvers:
How do you ensure your work is actionable?

Michelle Dunst:
How we ensure the work is actionable is by working hand in hand with the client on setting up the program with those KPIs in mind and, you know, a measurement framework, right, on what is this project or program supposed to do. But another thing I’d like to do is do a bit of discovery. And when I say do a bit, I media lot of discovery with the client and ingesting and learning as much as I can about that product or disease space or company’s goals and their strategy. Because from there, we can really tailor make that project specific for them so that it is the most actionable. So let’s say we learn about a particular product’s strategic imperatives for the year, or we learn about some of the activations that they have going on in the digital sphere that year. When we’re developing insights and we’re putting data in front of them, we’ll make a note of it. Hey. This ladder’s back to your SI, or this is potentially a pivot for one of your programs because we saw this in the patient in the patient’s social media listening. And so in doing those, taking those steps, we’re able to make the data and insights more actionable because it’s so specific and tailored to what that brand or company is has got has what they’ve got going on.

Data privacy, pharmacovigilance, and AI’s impact on healthcare

Jackie Cuyvers:
What do you find are some of the biggest challenges you face in social listening within the healthcare sector?

Michelle Dunst:
Definitely. And it’s like I said earlier, it’s not always easy. Right? So I think some of the more specific challenges in healthcare is, of course, privacy and ethical concerns. We’re dealing with sensitive data. We’re dealing with patient data. And where some folks might say, well, aren’t you stalking these people? It’s like, well, no. You know? And that part of the ethical concerns, right, is we’re only looking at publicly available social media data, and we’re not going in closed groups or closed forums where we would be acting as a patient. That’s not in our ethos, and that’s not what social listening is about. But that is a concern with healthcare data and the privacy of of what patients and caregivers expect when they’re sharing their journey. Another area is compliance of pharmacovigilance. For anyone that knows the healthcare sector, sector. Adverse event reporting is hugely important when we’re analysing and seeing social media data from patients and caregivers. So we do take extended trainings and a lot of rigor behind when we are analysing 20 and variety of data, misinformation that might exist in 2024. I also think a particular new challenge that we’re seeing in the last year or so is with the advent of AI, which is important and really exciting stuff. It could also lead to misinformation on social media where something information about a disease space was AI generated. We’re also seeing HCP influencers or digital opinion leaders that are in fact created by AI, and they’re not real physicians. And so how can we be careful about not just alerting our clients that these folks exist, but how can we better inform our patients so that they are not reading misinformation and taking it as face value?

Jackie Cuyvers:
How do you ensure that your insights and recommendations are relevant and applicable across different markets or languages?

Michelle Dunst:
Definitely. So when I said earlier about building teams that have different perspectives, different backgrounds, just like when we’re approaching a global social listening project, we want to ensure that the teams that are running the project have the background in multicultural analysis, that the folks we’re working on have diverse backgrounds, and that they’re experienced in that language and that market. Many times, we will engage local experts and partners to fill in those gaps because it’s not a one size fits all approach. And by showing up with the local expertise and the language and understanding how that community interacts with not only each other, but interacts with diseases and medicines is super important. So we wanna make sure that we’re thinking outside the box and that we engage external partners as needed.

Jackie Cuyvers:
How do you see the field of social listening insights and social intelligence evolving in the next 5 to 10 years?

Michelle Dunst:
Definitely. So I wouldn’t be the first person to say this, but it’s most definitely increased use of AI and machine learning because we are working with data. There’s a lot of value in working with AI to help us better analyse sentiment, for example, or to predict trends, which is something I’m super excited about. I think there’s a lot of opportunity there. We’ll also think about leveraging AI to help us parse through beyond text, but the images, videos, voice messages. Right? So we’re essentially expanding the scope of social listening beyond text based. We can really call it the next generation of social listening is that expansion of sources, whether that be podcasts or the intricacies of what’s going on in a patient video where they’re sharing their experiences. So that I’m that I’m super excited about. On that note of expanding of social listening channels, I do think that we’ll see more and more of over the next 5 to 10 years. So we won’t always be talking about what’s happening with x or TikTok. Right? Everything is new with TikTok right now. But what will be new and exciting and a data we can analyse in 5, 10 years? Perhaps it’s expansion into VR. Maybe virtual reality environments become something that is included in social podcasts is certainly something that that that we’ll start to see more and more of beyond text.

Begin social intelligence career with foundational education in business or communications

Jackie Cuyvers:
Can you share your advice for individuals interested in pursuing a career in social intelligence, and what qualities or skills do you think are are essential for their success?

Michelle Dunst:
My advice to those individuals who are looking to pursue a career in this, right, I do think that start with the education that you’ve got and having the foundational education in either business or strategic communication might be the way to go when it comes to, say, early undergrad or, you know, even starting in high school. Right? What can you learn in your classes about communications and business? I think the pharmaceutical side of social listening, you can even do more with. Right? We work with folks that had a background in medicine. If you’re someone that likes science, go for it. You social listening in healthcare is a booming industry. Another thing when I think about broader than the foundational education of, say, business or marketing or communications, don’t be afraid to take those technical courses. Because being proficient in not just social media listening tools, sure, that’s great. But even basic understanding of Python or SQL or dashboard solutions would help you be better set up to support data driven projects. I believe I said this before, but knowing enough to be dangerous about a few of these areas would be really valuable in entering a career in social listening. And then I’d be remiss to not mention another skill and area of education would be behavioural science and anthropology. Why that’s so important in social media listening is because we’re analysing people. And so understanding why people are the way that they are in their interactions and their behaviours is really impactful in our work and eve and even in the evolution of people behaviours over time and in the digital world. I think having that background and really desire to learn and track the trends of this when it comes to behavioural science or anthropology would really help you be a powerful, powerful leader in social listening because you’re people first and you know how to analyse the data with that in mind.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Thanks so much, Michelle, for sharing your thoughts and and giving us some insight into your own journey in social listening and social intelligence. I really appreciate you sharing.

Michelle Dunst:
Thank you so much, Jackie. This was a lot of fun, and I’m excited to see the future of social media listening strategist in the industry.

Jackie Cuyvers:
And that’s a wrap for this episode of the Women in Social Listening and Insights podcast. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation and taken away some valuable insights and advice from today’s guest. If you like this episode, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or Spotify so you never miss an episode. And don’t forget to follow us on LinkedIn for updates and additional resources. I’d like to take a minute to once again thank our interviewee for taking the time to join us on the show today and sharing her story and insights with us. Your contribution to the world of social intelligence is truly invaluable, and we’re so grateful for you sharing your time and expertise. And finally, if you listening know of anyone else who would make a great guest on our show, please don’t hesitate to introduce us. We’re always on the lookout for new and inspiring stories. Until next time, I’m Jackie Cuyvers, and this is the Women in Social Listening and Insights podcast. Thanks so much for listening.