[Podcast] The Human Lens: Rotem Hinkis on Balancing AI and Insight

Podcast Transcript

Jackie Cuyvers:
Welcome to the Women in Social Listening and Insights podcast, where we showcase the incredible work of women working in the field of social intelligence. My name is Jackie Cuyvers and I’ll be your host for this journey. In this podcast, we’ll be speaking with women from enterprise agencies and academia who are leading the charge in the world of social listening and insights. Together, we’ll be exploring their careers and the challenges they’ve faced and overcome and the innovative solutions they’ve developed. Our goal is to provide valuable insights and advice to our listeners who are passionate about this field and committed to advancing their careers. Whether you’re a seasoned professional or just starting out, you’ll find inspiration and guidance in these conversations. So sit back, relax, and get ready to learn from the women who are shaping the future of social intelligence. Let’s get started.

Jackie Cuyvers:
On today’s podcast, we’re joined by Rotem Hinkes. Rotem, could you take a moment to introduce yourself and share a little about your work and your role and what your role involves?

Rotem Hinkis:
Sure. And thanks so much for inviting me, Jackie. So I’m a senior Associate director based in APCO’s London office. So I’m. My accent is a little confusing. I’m originally from California, but I have been in London for the past five years. And I’m the business intelligence lead for Europe. So that means I lead all of our digital research in the region.So that encompasses things like media measurement and social listening. Our business intelligence team does house other experts, so those are focused on primary research surveys, focus groups, interviews, and then secondary research, which is more what I focus on. And also we have a lot of experts on AI and we provide insights for clients in the B2B space, particularly focused on things like corporate reputation, public affairs, sustainability impact, employer brands, kind of the whole comms and advisory space. But my particular focus is on corporate reputation.

Jackie Cuyvers:
And you’ve been recognised as a social intelligence Insider with the SI Lab in both 2024 and 2025. Did your career journey lead you to where you are today?

Rotem Hinkis:
Yeah. So I’m. I’m really proud of that award. It’s really nice to be recognized and such a respected organization for our industry. And I will say I really didn’t set out to become an expert in social intelligence, but looking back, it does kind of make a lot of sense. So from my literature studies, I brought a focus from identifying meaning from different narratives. When you’re reading a book or you’re inhabiting kind of different the role of a character, you’re thinking about, how do they view the world, what do they find important? Where is the meaning behind something that you see that might look quite basic initially? And from teaching, I think I work with a lot of college readiness students, so high schoolers. I loved that work. It was so challenging. I think what I learned was how to listen actively and break down some of those complex subjects and how to engage teenagers, which is really quite challenging. And a lot of what I do in my day to day is working with all sorts of teams to increase their digital intelligence literacy. So working with people with no experience in analytics and social intelligence, really in social at all sometimes. So helping them understand how media analytics, social listening can drive effective communications campaigns that are based on real evidence rather than just instinct. So, you know, their expertise is really crucial, but we want to make sure we bring that into the real world. And I want to give them the tools to do that which they don’t always have access to or feel comfortable using.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So in some of your past interviews, you’ve described social intelligence as letting curiosity drive how we form communication strategies while aligning audience, client, and media context. How does that people first approach shape your insights?

Rotem Hinkis:
I think it’s so important not to come with too many preconceived notions of what we think will work on a project. I’m really lucky, and it helps that I work in the B2B space where I can work on some very wonky technical stuff. I’ve done things like working on campaigns for advanced filtration, for beer production, personal finance, medical devices like mining and metals. You name it, I’ve probably learned about it. And I had no background to come from to inform some of that. So I really try and let that curiosity drive me forward. So I want to understand what’s important about these issue areas. What do niche audiences that are involved in that care about and how do we reach them effectively? I’m definitely not an expert on all of these client sectors.I. I don’t pretend to be, but I’m really focused on listening to what the data says, what audiences are saying. And I think I bring this kind of outsider perspective that helps to give a, you know, illuminate some of that interesting stuff that might have otherwise been overlooked or, you know, when you’re focused on some sort of area of expertise, you’re locked into a perspective that I’m just not locked into.

Jackie Cuyvers:
You mentioned some of these niche topics. Are there any that you found surprisingly interesting?

Rotem Hinkis:
So one of my first clients, when I was really like a baby in the industry, when I was an intern, was focused on chemicals production and manufacturing and I did a huge piece of work. It was kind of a monitoring project that I would do three hours a day and it was really technical, lots of intense acronyms and terminology. But to be honest, I loved it. I think it really gave me that initial insight into what it’s like to learn a totally different field and immerse myself in this space. So that’s just like one of the examples, but honestly something I look back on really fondly.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So do you think having some of these niche data sources or insights that you’ve developed help you out in trivia?

Rotem Hinkis:
Oh my God, I mean I wish it did. I don’t find that like chemical regulation practices come up in trivia as much as I would like. But like, I don’t know, I think it’s. If someone could create a trivia focused on some of these niche industries, I’m sure I do.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Well, excellent thinking about your current role in your work with global B2B clients. How do you collaborate internally and externally to ensure the insights translate into effective strategy and measurable outcomes for your clients or stakeholders?

Rotem Hinkis:
So I do work of course with several people who are experts in the sectors that we might work in. And so that’s both on an industry level. So if I’m talking about like things like medical devices or healthcare, and also in the realm of PR expertise because I have a lot of experience in social media management, for example, so it’s really easy for me to come up with and understand what are some of the outcomes. But I don’t have a ton of experience in driving earned media. So I work with a lot of earned media professionals who can help translate some of that. So I consistently work with both my colleagues and those clients to refine the insights, translate them into actionable outcomes. I also really pride myself on bridging the gap between the research field, which I think can be very academic in nature, and the practical comms and advisory space, which is a lot more action oriented. So because of my background in running social media campaigns, I don’t want things to just live in the realm of like theory and data.I do really want to quickly get towards okay, what does it mean clients to their audiences and what can we do about it? Rather than just collecting a lot of information, sure, that that what does it mean? And then the so what do we do about it or with it is really important.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So thinking about that, how do you distinguish between data from schools and the deeper human led insight needed for data, this type of decision making and what misconceptions do you find yourself countering?

Rotem Hinkis:
Sure. So I mean, I think a challenge that I’ve seen recently, maybe in the past few years is a preference towards quantitative data. So like a big focus on, okay, how much data can we get, what are all the numbers behind something? And then also this issue that I call the number go up problem, it’s not a very official terminology, but that’s what I’m gonna go with. And I think on the quantitative data side, of course it’s really important and it can be very illuminating, so understanding, like how much coverage a client is getting, how many posts, media hits. But when we’re focused really closely on those numbers and this kind of business of making the numbers go up quarter after quarter, year after year, I think we often lose sight of the why behind why that number change. So, you know, was the sentiment what we expected it to be? Is that information or that data really significant? Does it mean what we think it does? So it might be a share of voice number or an awareness based metric. Is it actually meaning that we have good content for our audiences or is something missing? And I think the challenge is making sure we’re spending real time digging into the results. So not just staying at this surface level, but finding the significant meaning and the patterns. I think that’s challenging, of course, from a budget and a timeline perspective. You know, often these research projects or social listening happens at the start of a project when we’re setting strategy. Often we want those insights really fast. But I think meaningful stuff takes time. Time, it takes brain power. AI can help a little bit, but there’s just no replacement for sitting, thinking critically about that, thinking critically about client objectives, talking to experts, and then using that to guide some of our strategy.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So once you have that, how do you then help your clients or stakeholders see that it’s more than just a reporting tool, it can be truly strategic?

Rotem Hinkis:
Yeah, I think it’s always a challenge because I think social listening, especially in the B2B space, is kind of undervalued and undersold. And what I try to do is focus on audiences as a kind of lever for highlighting the strategic importance of social intelligence. So I often pose this question to clients and colleagues if we truly want to be reaching our audience group. So whether that’s to change their minds, raise their awareness of a company or hire, highlight some sort of element about an organization’s reputation, shouldn’t we be listening to these audiences? Like it sounds very basic. Right. But I find that it’s something that is often skipped and in a world where attention spans are really short and people can tune out quickly, why would we want to spend so much time and resources on something that doesn’t resonate with our core audience? It’s like spending tons of money to be featured in a newspaper that your audience just doesn’t read. It’s so crucial. Like, if you want to be as an organization, a thought leader, you want to show up.Well, you can’t be talking about an issue that only you care about. And of course, people who work at companies or in a certain industry have a ton of experience, but they have to be listening to their audiences. And social intelligence is, of course, just one way of understanding those audiences, but I think it’s effective and it can be complemented with other types of, of research as well.

Jackie Cuyvers:
With your experience spanning across California, Tel Aviv and London, how has working globally influenced your own understanding of cultural context within social listening?

Rotem Hinkis:
So I think there’s so much meaning that can be lost when you don’t take cultural nuance into account. When I moved from, from Tel Aviv to London five years ago, honestly, I thought it would be super easy. Like, I’m back in a country that speaks my strongest language. Like, I speak Hebrew. I don’t do great at it. I feel much more comfortable in English. I’m sure you had a similar experience as an American in the uk but it took me a while to come to terms with the fact that some turns of phrase or ways of framing something sort of expression just means something totally different than what I’m used to. So I don’t know if you feel this way, but I still struggle with British connotations behind saying something is interesting.

For example, just as you know, I will say something is interesting because I think it’s interesting, right? And the cultural nuance around that in Britain can mean that that means something else. And I think that kind of nuance is essential in social listening. You want to make sure that you’re aware of the subtle narratives, sarcasm, some undercurrents, because that can radically change what you think you’re seeing on the surface and what is actually happening, particularly on the Internet, where there’s just a different way of speaking. And so I’m really lucky that I have a huge network of colleagues around the world that I can pull on and say, hey, okay, what does this mean here? Is it something different from what I expect? What kind of platform should I be thinking about? What kind of outlets are meaningful in the region? What is the subtext behind some of what’s happening Here to make sure that we’re not misinterpreting something that looks simple on the surface, but just isn’t when you dig into it.

Jackie Cuyvers:
When diving into niche or global topics, how do you ensure your methodology captures nuance while remaining reliable across these diverse contexts, audiences, or even, like you were saying, regional platforms or local nuance?

Rotem Hinkis:
So it’s not the most exciting answer, but I’ll say two things, I think. One is making sure that we have a strong framework for the work while still remaining flexible. So that’s really a balance between reinventing the wheel each time, where we have a super bespoke methodology for every client project, and a cut and paste approach where methodology stays very similar each time. One is very efficient, of course, cut and paste approach, but also means that, that we’re not paying attention to nuance. So what I try to do is balance those two things. So not reinventing too much with every methodology, making a framework or taking one that we’ve developed with a certain objective that makes sense and using this, but adjusting it as needed. So if, I mean, for example, I have like some scoring methodology that scores across five different factors. It’s like a standard standard. And two of those factors just don’t make sense for the client. I have to be at peace with changing them, throwing them out, adjusting slightly, while also not revisiting the entire methodology and entering what I think of as like some sort of existential crisis. And the other thing, and I’ll be short on this one because I think it’s, it’s a bit more obvious, is to make sure that we balance both quantitative and qualitative evaluations. When we’re looking at numbers across regions, fine. But it might mean something totally different when you look at what’s the norm for that region. Right. Or you might see big increase in posts or coverage. But our qualitative evaluation means that that’s not a good sign or it means something more complex. So it’s important to balance all of, all of those things. It’s not just the having a solid framework and being flexible where needed, but the data and the platforms are constantly changing too.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So how do you maintain relevance and resonance in insights when these online trends are rapidly evolving?

Rotem Hinkis:
So I think I’m honestly, really, really lucky that in my B2B work, I’m usually working on a macro micro trend basis rather than micro trends. I’ll say. Also on a personal level, I’m not a micro trend girly. Like I’m an older millennial. I, I have spent my time on TikTok, I am still there, but I struggle to keep up with the rush of everything constantly. But when we are tracking something that’s particularly nuanced or fast moving, so it might be like a reputational crisis, for example, we do spend a little bit of time, Even if that’s 30 minutes at the outset of a project, to outline how we might see this information coming up. So maybe we’re looking at previous instances of similar crisis, or we’re looking at cultural or regional nuances and what types of platforms audiences might be looking at. I think it’s really important to build your framework starting from that point of nuance of expertise and regional understanding or even audience based understanding. Right. Do we expect this trend to go from TikTok to Twitter or vice versa? Do we expect none of that? Is it going to sit on LinkedIn, whatever it might be? We really need to be looking at audience behavior, that language, what the content means and when we need to be concerned.

Jackie Cuyvers:
How are you currently using AI tools in your insights work, if at all? And where do you think their potential is? Being overhyped or misunderstood?

Rotem Hinkis:
It’s a really good question and I think one that’s coming up a lot in our industry currently. I find myself, you know, between the range of like hype to skeptic. I try and stay in the middle. So taking a really practical view of, of AI and large language models, I think this is going to very much become a tool just like any other research tool. I would love if in the future, and I’m sure it will be, we look at generative AI and large language models as a tool in the toolbox, just like excel. I think LLMs are really good at two main use cases. One is beating the white page problem, right? So starting an initial version of something that could be a Boolean, it could be an outline of a new methodology, it could even collate an initial version of some potential insights if I have the research and a bunch of insights to start with. But I never use the AI version as a final product. And honestly, it often looks what the final version is, often looks very different from where we started, if we started with AI. But using AI to help get over that initial hump of starting means that you can come to it slightly fresh. So rather than looking at the same data over and over and over, it’s really hard to come at, okay, what does this mean? Where is it going? What are the keywords I’m missing? It’s helpful to start with AI and then figure out, okay, what are the biases that might be coming up. What, what are we missing? And it’s easier to do that from that third person perspective. And I will say the other thing that I really like to use large language models for, NLP natural language processing is for identifying patterns. So I think it’s really important, and I cannot overstate this, is to emphasize that large language models do not think right. They are pattern recognition machines. But when we use them for pattern recognition, they are fantastic. They’re irreplaceable tool and they can take tons of different pieces of data and create some connections so that we can point towards some signals of trends. I think it’s crucial for us as people, as humans to interpret some of what those trends are saying, but as a starting point to collect that information and direct us towards, towards some patterns. It’s a fantastic tool.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Do you think we’ll ever reach a point where human analysts are only guiding machine generated insight? Or will interpretation always need a human lens?

Rotem Hinkis:
I think again, from the practical perspective, I don’t think there’s a point where large language models will be able to do this on their own effectively. I once, like, I think it was a couple years back, I attended a presentation where the guiding argument was that AI could get us 70% of the way towards a completed analysis. And while I think there’s a lot of ways that AI can get us further faster than how we’ve previously gone before, I’m extremely hesitant to say that AI can get us 70, 80 or 90% of the way alone. I think there remains that fundamental problem that large language models are built around probability based outputs, right? So that means that again, there is no critical thinking taking place. Even in some of those critical thinking models we see that there’s still a basis around those, those probability based outputs. So they can’t take into account context, nuance, new data they’ve encountered before. That’s why hallucinations are still an issue, even with ChatGPT. So in order to get to 70% of the work finished right, you need to do a ton of work to check where the AI went wrong, what was the 30% that was problematic. And so I think ultimately, while these AI tools can be part of what we do, there always has to be that human in the loop that’s checking, making sure does this make sense for the client? What’s the context and the nuance that might have been missed?

Jackie Cuyvers:
You’ve spoken about generative AI and platform fragmentation. What do you anticipate the future landscape of social listening will look like in five years or by 2030 even.

Rotem Hinkis:
So, I think, and my answer changes to this periodically based on how I’m feeling that day. But I think we will see a future where we have to expand our definition of what we think of as social platforms. So especially with the lens of what influences corporate reputation for companies, I think one of these pieces is looking at AI, not as a tool necessarily, but as a window into how people view the world around them. So what are audiences asking chatbots? What are they hearing back that’s changing their opinions? How is that evolving or changing over time? And how does information that starts with the chatbot making its way into the social sphere and vice versa? Like, I’m super fascinated to see where this is leading. I’ve definitely spent some time on that meta page where you can see people prompting llama. And I think it is like some of the most new stuff I’ve ever seen coming out of social media. And while it’s not traditional social listening, in a sense, it’s is still dealing with people and how they’re viewing the world.

Jackie Cuyvers:
If fragmented conversations move into private spaces or niche platforms, how should social intelligence teams adapt?

Rotem Hinkis:
So I think this is also a super interesting challenge where we’re kind of in the industry facing like a sea change that we’ll need to address some of this in the future. So we’ve seen big platforms like Twitter, which had a huge impact on social listening. We’ve seen them start to lose users to more walled gardens overall, we’ve seen this trend towards the initiatification of platforms. Apologies for the using of that word, I hope it’s okay. But we’re seeing that authenticity of content is under question and a lot of users are leaving due to platform decay. I think the way to address this is really to go back to old school, more qualitative insights. So this era of big data, where we have tons of information at audiences, on audiences at our fingertips, it’s likely to come to an end. Maybe that’s a pessimistic outlook and I think maybe it’s 10 years or 15 years from now, but it’s not because we won’t have all these data sources anymore. We will. It’s just there will be so many of them that won’t be accessible to third party tools. So it will only really give us one piece of that broader puzzle. And I think doing that legwork of, of joining and listening in on forums, discord chats, Facebook groups, influencer led spaces will start to define more and more of how we reach those insights. So, again, maybe that’s part of my interest as more of a qualitatively based professional, but I really do think that we are going to see a shift here.

Jackie Cuyvers:
How has your literary background shaped your analytical and narrative approach?

Rotem Hinkis:
I love this question because I think it’s really unusual way of thinking about social listening research and insight generation. I have to say that growing up online, I was really more in the lurking sphere. I think that also reflects my background in literature. I love to listen and I love to understand what is happening rather than necessarily be speaking at all times. But I will say that the main overlap I see between those two worlds of storytelling and insight generation is that for insight to be impactful, it has to resonate with client teams. We can do tons of really, really great research, but if no one is listening, it doesn’t make an impact. And I think the best way to make an impact is to tell that research or that insight through a story. So that doesn’t mean it has to be something fantastic or character driven, but it has to have something like a beginning, a middle end, or some sort of tension.

So what is the story between what we thought we’d find and what we actually did? How is the client’s reputation developed over time in a way that tells a story? Or if we’re looking at measurement, what’s the story behind the numbers? And then, and I think this is about bit more challenging. How can we say this in as few sentences as possible? That’s that talking to teenagers piece coming in again. Right. So how can we land relatively quickly on what this means and how the client should act?

Jackie Cuyvers:
Are there any writers or authors that you’ve found have interesting or valuable perspectives for insight professionals?

Rotem Hinkis:
Yeah. So I am a huge newsletter reader. I think I’ve subscribed to maybe 10 or 20 in my inbox. I wish I could listen to podcasts as much as I would like, but I am just a reader through and through. And there are three journalists that I tend to always come back to, and that’s Charlie Wurzel, Ryan Broderick, and Anne Helen Peterson. And I hope I’m saying their names correctly, because again, having read them, I don’t always know how they’re pronounced beyond Right. Who I’ve met in person. But what those journalists really contribute is that they come at the online world from different perspectives. And I think Warzel brings this kind of outside in perspective. So he’s often looking at the wider text and political context, what’s happening in Silicon Valley, and then how Is that influencing what we’re seeing online? I love Ryan’s Garbage Day newsletter, so a huge shout out to subscribe to that because he has the opposite take, actually. So it’s an inside out take. So looking at the online world and, you know, what are the terminally online speaking about today? What are the memes? What are the niche, you know, fights happening, and how is that actually affecting the outside world in unexpected ways? How is it changing our politics from a US perspective or UK perspective? How is it changing the world around us? And Peterson, I think, is really good at analyzing the broader implications and nuances around social status, culture, class dynamics, and how they influence both our online and offline worlds. She is currently doing some really interesting stuff and she has for the past couple of years on the Alabama rush scene, the sorority rush scene, that I just find horrifically fascinating. It’s just this window into a world that I would never otherwise understand. So I think what these authors all give me is this ability to look at how do I find a signal within the noise? They’re not social listening professionals in any sense, but they are doing this kind of essential work every day.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Based on your experience, what advice would you offer to those building or scaling their own social intelligence teams inside organizations?

Rotem Hinkis:
I think especially in the B2B space, it can’t be overstated how much this is actually necessary. I do think, again, like, social listening tends to be overlooked and that this feeling of, well, you know, we’re just talking about broader issues or this isn’t consumer focus, why should we be doing social listening? So I think the first thing is valuing this as a, as a perspective, as an area of excitement, expertise. Just because you know how to manage or. Sorry, just because you know how to post on your Twitter account or on LinkedIn doesn’t mean you know how to do social insights. So starting from a perspective of this is a real area of value and then I’ll say it’s a little bit cliche, but diversity is crucial. So diversity in how people approach the data, right? How are they looking at it? Is it from a data scientist point of view or a quote, qualitative, more cultural focus, and then a diversity in cultural perspectives and comms perspectives. So you want to find people who are connecting with your audiences in a way that makes sense and also people who can look at an issue from different perspectives, different angles, and come up with some, some actions that you should be taking as part of those insights that you might find unexpected.

Jackie Cuyvers:
So we’ve all taken different paths to get to this career and industry. Are there any educational or career steps that you would recommend that help blend qualitative and quantitative thinking and or building social intelligence skills?

Rotem Hinkis:
Yeah, I mean, I do want to shout out to the humanities just as an initial kind of piece, because while I didn’t learn statistics as an English literature major, I think it really gave me a strong background that helped me do the job that I do today. And otherwise, I think what I’ve landed on as part of my professional journey is that kind of McKinsey T shaped skills model. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that before, but I think it’s a good way of, of looking at an area of expertise. So that’s the kind of vertical part. The long part of the T is an in depth area of expertise in one direction and then the shorter horizontal end is acquiring a broader range of skills. So if you’re really good on quantitative thinking for social intelligence, that’s amazing. You want to keep developing your skill set there, but you don’t want to discount a wider range of experience in other fields. So that might be things like qualitative research, primary research, like surveys, running digital and social media campaigns. I think all of this is complementary and actually gives you a better perspective on what you can do to differentiate yourself as a professional and also make sure that you’re heard because you can relate to all of these other areas. So you’re not locked into this kind of academic space, but you can blend these areas of expertise to be nimble, to be speaking to different people, and to be thinking about challenges in all sorts of different ways.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your thoughts, experience and expertise. It’s been so great getting to learn more about your history and how you got here and your thoughts on where we’re headed in the future.

Rotem Hinkis:
Yeah, it was such a pleasure to take part, Jackie. I’m so pleased to have done this and I’m really looking forward to staying in touch and giving more hot takes that may or may not happen in the future. Sounds great. Thanks so much.

Jackie Cuyvers:
Thank you.

Jackie Cuyvers:
And that’s a wrap for this episode of the Women in Social Listening and Insights podcast. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation and taken away some valuable insights and advice from today’s guest. If you like this episode, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast on itunes or Spotify so you never miss an episode. And don’t forget to follow us on LinkedIn for updates and additional resources. I’d like to take a minute to Once again, thank our interviewee for taking the time to join us on the show today and sharing her story and insights with us. Your contribution to the world of social intelligence is truly invaluable and we’re so grateful for you sharing your time and expertise. And finally, if you listeners know of anyone else who would make a great guest on our show, please don’t hesitate to introduce us. We’re always on the lookout for new and inspiring stories.

Until next time, I’m Jackie Cuyvers and this is the Women in Social Listening and Insights podcast. Thanks so much for listening.